Secret tape shows Paula Vennells was told about problems with Horizon and warned not to cover it up

ITV News has obtained a covert recording revealing a meeting with Paula Vennells in 2013 in which she was told denying Horizon faults was “dangerous” as Dan Hewitt reports

A secret audio recording obtained by ITV News has revealed Post Office boss Paula Vennells was told directly about problems with the Horizon system and warned not to cover them up.

In a meeting with independent investigators from Second Sight on July 2, 2013, Ms Vennells was made aware of allegations that sub-postmaster branch accounts could be accessed remotely.

This is something the Post Office had denied for years.

She was also told by investigators that the company’s position in denying Horizon faults was both “dangerous” and "stupid", according to the recording.

Meanwhile, the Post Office was taking sub-postmasters to court where many were wrongly convicted of fraud.

They were found guilty, partly on the basis that remote access to their branch accounts was not possible, meaning the sub-postmasters were to blame.

For more than two decades, sub-postmasters complained their accounting system was faulty.

Some sub-postmasters complained of seeing the numbers on their accounts change in front of their eyes, but when they called the Horizon helpline they were told they were the problem.

It later emerged that Fujitsu staff were able to access the sub-postmasters accounts remotely from their Bracknell HQ and were fixing bugs caused by the faulty computer system.

As the head of the Post Office between 2012 and 2019, Ms Vennells, who was stripped of her CBE status in February, was in charge when sub-postmasters were wrongly pursued.

In the taped meeting, Ms Vennells and several other Post Office executives can be heard being briefed by forensic accountants Ron Warmington and Ian Henderson from Second Sight, who were investigating possible issues with Horizon.

The pair said: "When you say they didn't have access to the Horizon system, but actually they were passing entries to live data...that is really dangerous ground.

"The last thing you want is a spot review response that says, categorically there was no access to live data from Bracknell.

"If in a week's time some bloody whistleblower pipes up to say, well, actually I was working on the second floor and we routinely did ‘X’.

At the meeting, Mr Warmington and Mr Henderson expressed their concerns that the Post Office was not being transparent about the possibility of branch accounts being accessed by Fujitsu workers remotely.

They said: "That sort of what might be interpreted in the press as weasel wording, um, is extremely dangerous.

We're not just asking whether people in that basement had access to live systems, even if your answer is, they did have access to what they called the live system, but it wasn't live, which itself, you know, we're having to kind of word carefully to make it sound other than stupid...

"When you say they didn't have access to the Horizon system, but actually they were passing entries to live data. Um, but you didn't ask that, that that is really dangerous ground.

The Post Office would continue to deny remote access was possible until 2019, six years after this meeting.

A senior Post Office official is also heard telling Ms Vennells and the others that they are interviewing Fujitsu staff about remote access.

They said: "The action from yesterday is to check who has access throughout that whole Bracknell building. So we’ve taken that away this morning."

In 2013, at the time of this meeting, the Post Office was still taking sub-postmasters to court on the basis that remote access to their branch accounts was not possible.

In total, more than 900 sub-postmasters were convicted of fraud and theft, including Seema Misra.

She was pregnant when she was wrongly jailed for stealing close to £75,000 from the Post Office she ran - due to the faulty Horizon IT system.

ITV News showed Ms Misra the tapes.

She told ITV News: "Now that after listening to the tapes and everything , oh my god they I'm thinking don't care.

"They don't care that I'm pregnant and been sent to prison for a crime I never committed

"But they don't care, they're just good at hiding things."

ITV News has approached Ms Vennells for comment but has not had a response.

In a statement from February, after handing back her CBE, Ms Vennells said:

“I have so far maintained my silence as I considered it inappropriate to comment publicly while the Inquiry remains ongoing and before I have provided my oral evidence.

“I am truly sorry for the devastation caused to the sub-postmasters and their families, whose lives were torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the Horizon system.”

A Post Office spokesperson said: “The statutory public inquiry, chaired by a judge with the power to question witnesses under oath, is the best forum to examine the issues raised by this evidence.

"We continue to remain fully focused on supporting the inquiry get to the truth of what happened and accountability for that.”

Second Sight investigators Mr Warmington and Mr Henderson declined to comment, stating they are core participants in the Post Office inquiry and have signed confidentiality agreements.

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